Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Ylva on Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:48 am

I hope you're still with us Anthony because I'm about to give you some examples on how your knowledge in physics are lacking and gives every mathematician headache.

1. Set theory
You keep on saying that if all objects in a set posses a certain property, then the set itself has that property. You give the example that if every brick in a wall is red, then the wall itself is red. Well this is true for this specific example, but there is a reason why many mathematicians dislike examples; they can often mislead you from the correct definition. Examples and metaphors are good to explain things, but you often use them as if they had full explanatory power which they often do not.
To convince you of this truth, I'm going to give you an example. There is a thing called a Möbius strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip <-- there is a nice picture so you fully understand, you can make one yourself as well). Now lets fill a set with objects that are triangles. A triangle has two sides and three edges. It is possible to place these triangles so they form a Möbius strip, and as soon as you place the last triangle, the set will have one side, and one edge. This is in other words a set with objects, where every object posses' properties which the whole set does not. You should study more math :D
Another example, if every brick in the wall is cubic doesn't mean that the wall is cubic. If you have a set of odd numbers doesn't mean that the number of objects in the set is odd.

2. Causality is time-bound
You said on page 5 in this thread (and that's not the only place you've said it in) that when you sit on a chair, the effect (chair holding up your ass) is simultaneous and that would suggest that cause and effect is not always time-bound. This is wrong. The cause you're talking about is the mechanical cause, and believe it or not, the cause is time bound in a mechanical way in this example. The reason why your ass does not go through your chair is due to electric forces on atomic level in the chair and your ass that is repelling each other. When they meet, the forces get stronger and stronger until they reach a balance when the pushing force is equally big as the forces between your ass and the chair. It is time-bound.

3. Mechanical cause
You say that every effect in this universe need a cause (the way you've talked about cause sound like you mead a mechanical cause). Well this is not really true. Take for example radioactivity. If you give an electron energy it will be excited and pop out to a level with higher energy. Sooner or later it will pop back, but there is no mechanical cause whatsoever which comes directly prior the back-popping. The jump back happens and you can determine with experiment only the probability for when it will happen. This probability alters with element and how much energy you give the electron.

4. Rational thinking
You have said that matter is not capable of doing rational conclusion, therefore there must exist something immaterial. This is very smug scientifically to say because it is outside the boarders of science. Empirically, you are matter and you think therefore it is possible. There is no need for anything else. As soon as you start talking about immaterial things such as divine intervention or soul, you are talking about metaphysics and scientists stopped doing that long ago because there is no way to put up at model for it, to measure it, confirm theories about it etcetera. Only philosophers are doing metaphysics and they will not come to any conclusion. Therefore there is no use talking about metaphysics at all, (you see why there is no point discussing a creator of the universe?).

I must say that I am disappointed in most guys here. What is this? 4:th grade where it is ok to gang up and bully someone like you do. Sure, it is annoying when someone not so good at logic, physics and math does a lot of incorrect claims but I can't say that the counterarguments are so good all the time either.
Anthony, my best advice to you is to leave all forums about religion you currently are writing in and start doing real math, physics and logic courses. You will learn much much more and you won't be bullied because you can't understand replies which are not pedagogical if you want good understanding of real stuff. The aim of this post is in no way patronizing and I hope you see this as a response to your arguments.
Do you dare believe God might not exist?
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby sheling on Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:46 am

Correct me if I am wrong, Atheism seems to be 100 percent in its position as a word, yes? No.?


In the same way that someone can say "I don't believe it's possible for a man to travel to Saturn": the possibility hasn't been excluded, it's just, as things stand right now there's no evidence otherwise.
"I hate to break it to you, but "Q" from Star Trek is neither an expert nor an authority when it comes to evolution." ~ Hampe (Earth First?)
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Pendragon on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:15 pm

sheling wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, Atheism seems to be 100 percent in its position as a word, yes? No.?


In the same way that someone can say "I don't believe it's possible for a man to travel to Saturn": the possibility hasn't been excluded, it's just, as things stand right now there's no evidence otherwise.


I can see the uncertainty about the potential future for an atheist. It is a wise stance for anyone with a scientific view, and seems to involve a fair amount of skepticism in its reasoning. Atheism does state clearly that one does not believe in theism, however. We cannot yet send a person to Saturn, but with future advances we might be able to, same as 100 years ago, it was absurd to send a person to the Moon. This seems a bit different than wondering if god/s exist, or at least the ones presented from the religions right now, Christian/Jewish/ Muslim/Pagan claims of divinity seem quite lacking.

Perhaps some better way to define ourselves is in order, but verbal technology takes some effort to evolve. I certainly accept how people wish to define themselves. It interests me they use a spoonful of skepticism quite often.
When we remember that we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.

MARK TWAIN, Mark Twain's Notebook
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Postby Zarathustra on Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:53 pm

Ylva wrote:I must say that I am disappointed in most guys here.
Me too. In some cases, they just take arguments that were presented on page one, and repeat them at twelve, as though they have something new to say.
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Re:

Postby Pendragon on Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:57 pm

Zarathustra wrote:
Ylva wrote:I must say that I am disappointed in most guys here.
Me too. In some cases, they just take arguments that were presented on page one, and repeat them at twelve, as though they have something new to say.


Well then, what songs shall we sing to lull the Z Lord back to sleep?
I know a bank where the wild thyme blows,
Where oxlips and the nodding violet grows,
Quite over-canopied with luscious woodbine,
With sweet musk-roses and with eglantine:
There sleeps Titania sometime of the night,
Lull'd in these flowers with dances and delight;
And there the snake throws her enamell'd skin,
Weed wide enough to wrap a fairy in
When we remember that we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained.

MARK TWAIN, Mark Twain's Notebook
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Minimalist on Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:24 am

Sorry guys but the flaw in Anthony's argument appeared in the OP where he tried to shoehorn his superstitions in as a reasonable argument without proving that his (or any other variant of) 'god' actually exists. 12 pages later, it still sits there. "Goddidit." we've all heard it before.

I see no reason to cut him any slack on that.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine
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Re:

Postby Hampe on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:28 am

Zarathustra wrote:
Ylva wrote:I must say that I am disappointed in most guys here.
Me too. In some cases, they just take arguments that were presented on page one, and repeat them at twelve, as though they have something new to say.

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- P.W. Atkins (from "Creation Revisted")
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Ylva on Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:51 pm

I do fully agree with you Min that Anthony's arguments are so full of flaws they give me as much headache as a standard hangover. However, I believe they come from his stubbornness and lack of knowledge. I don't think there's anything wrong with Anthony's intelligence, he's simply ignorant, hasn't learned the important stuff the right way. Simple as that (sorry to talk over your head Anthony, it's rude and I apologize). The way of curing ignorance is not repeating "idiot", but saying "do your homework". I don't think Anthony will learn anything arguing on this or any other religious forum.

Anyway, I wonder why you at all discuss in any way how this universe was caused or if it was caused at all. That would be "before" the existence of this universe, hence "before" existence of the laws we know. Why do you say there is an arbitrarily amount of alternatives for the beginning of this universe? How could you say a cause "outside" this universe could be personal for example? Does personal exist "outside" this universe? It is metaphysics and there is no point in discussing it. Period.
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Minimalist on Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:00 pm

I'm content to say "I don't know" on the 'beginning' of the universe. I'll go a step further. I don't even know if the question has any relevance at all. What pisses me off about bible-thumpers is that they won't say "I don't know" and instead substitute superstition.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine
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Re: Atheism and the Burden of Proof Revisited

Postby Oy Veder on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:09 pm

Learning is impossible without a desire to learn. To be sure, I agree with you Ylva that he has the capacity to learn.

The problem is that when faced by a deep-seated desire to avoid reality it is very easy to get frustrated. Min is actually being quite tolerant by his standards when dealing with Anthony....this time.
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